Help! Problem with dye release times!!

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Mon, 2010-12-13 09:35
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2dazzle
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Help! Problem with dye release times!!

Hi everyone,always loved henna &  decided i should do it as a profession (I'm not a great artist but somewhat okay :) ) So i want to start making my own paste.After reading up most of the great information provided on this page & watching countless youtube videos i decided to give it a try.

I bought the Jamila crop 2010(100g) & rajasthani crop 2008(50g) online (it's not available here)

At first i tried mixing both the powders,let it sit 12 hrs & terped it with tea tree oil & let it sit another 12 hrs.(I also did the 5 min patch test & it was an orange)  Tried a design on my palm, it was a hopless orange & didn't even darken into a brown.Made another batch & let it sit for 8-10 hrs,even that didn't work.. Some artists mix both powders & make it & get that really dark stain!

But i read somewhere that each type of henna has different dye release times so you have to mix it separately so i tried that way ..8,10,12 16 & even 24 hrs (it said raj takes about 8-10 hrs & jamila 24)

tried raj only 1 last time..let it sit for 5 hrs & tried the patch test ,it was a bright orange.then added the EO & kept for another 1.5 hrs.but when i tried it on the back of my hand it left an orange stain that progressed into a very light brown.

Since the temperature here is usually between 75F-85F & henna releases dye faster at higher temps i'm not sure how long i should keep it for..These are my questions :)

Can i mix both henna powders together or should i mix it separately ..if so for how long should i let each one sit according to this temperature?

Is there a way to tell if i've kept it for too long or too little? (i've seen what dye release looks like)

Even though the patch test was a slightly bright orange the henna stain wasn't good..how bright should it be?

Since i bought only a small qty of henna powder 150g in total ,i'm mixing very small amounts because it will get wasted if the paste doesn't come out so does that make a difference in the no of hours you let it sit? when i mixed separately i used 1 tsp raj,a little less than 1/4 tsp sugar & lemon juice & 2-3 drops of tree tea oil.  :D i've already wasted quite a few teaspoonfuls of henna since i failed miserably at paste making!!!

I really hope someone can help me out..i tried posting this question on another forum & nobody replied :(

Thank you so much for all the information on this page especially the one about black henna!!! I didn't know it was harmful when i used it.I almost got scarred but thankfully it went off .Never used it after that & never will..I have created a page for my henna designs & cakes on facebook & i I was wondering if it's okay to put a link your article on my  page to let everyone know the dangers of it.Thanks!!

 

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Mon, 2010-12-13 10:31
Jen
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 I keep different hennas separated until they have dye released if the timing is vastly different. IME, I use Mehandi's Rajasthani Monsoon after standing about 8 hour and Purity after 24, so I do them separate. With Celebration, I get good color after 6-8 hours so when I use that with the Raj Monsoon I go ahead and mix them together since they're close.

You should get a pumpkin to neon orange from your skin test if you're at peak with good henna.

I would suggest asking your supplier directly what sort of dye release times you should expect. (S)he should know best.

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Mon, 2010-12-13 22:41
Nicole
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

What are you mixing your henna powder with, and how long are you letting it sit on the skin?  These might also be factors in colour.

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Tue, 2010-12-14 09:27
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Thanks for replying :) So i tried mixing raj 1 more time..covered it in clingfilm(instead of the lid) & left a paper towel on top..I noticed in abt 3-4 hrs there was a light orange stain on it.Anyway did the patch test @ 5 hrs & 6 hrs ,at tis point i terped it & tested again at 8 hrs before coning it.The orange wasn't bright *sigh, the orange at 8 hrs was slightly brighter.Then i tried a leaf design on my arm (little away from the wrist,my palm still has the orange stain from the previous disaster ;) ) left it on for 1.5 hrs ,only got a frustrating pale orange stain!!!

Am i supposed to terp it as soon as i see that orange stain on the paper (since the dye has released) or should i keep it longer..keeping it too long will also ruin the henna isn't it? Since the temperature here is mostly close to or is at 85F should i keep it for a shorter time? My henna supplier said Jamila takes 24hrs but she said the temp is a little high,hoping to mail her about the timing for raj.

@ Nicole; I mix lemon juice -sugar,a little bit from  fresh lemons & a little store bought lemon juice (ingredients in that are: distilled water,lemon,sugar & lemon oil) Since  water is the 1st ingredient i felt that the effects of the lemon may not be enough so i added  some fresh lemon too) the other types of lemon juice either have preservatives or are from concentrates (i think) & i terp it with tea tree oil.

Twice when i tried the henna paste on my hand ,i left it overnight ,on my palm for about 4 hrs & the back of my hand for about 7 hrs but it left a hopeless orange stain :(  The store bought cones left a better stain! Oh, i also used the lemon/sugar syrup on the dried design.

I noticed in many henna artists photos that the raj & jamila henna had turned a very bright orange by the time they've completed & the paste off pictures show quite a dark brown stain.I know somethings terribly wrong with the timings because everyone seems to be getting it right but me * sigh!!..Thanks again :) At the rate i'm screwing up i might run out of henna powder to try LOL!!!

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Tue, 2010-12-14 09:56
ladytetsu
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

I've had great luck with rajmila myself in the past, but I do a dump and mix.  I dump EVERYTHING into the bowl all at once and just go, terps and all.  I've never worried about the water overwhelming the lemon juice, I use plain old bottled lemon and actually ADD water - you don't need that much acid.  It might be what's slowing you down.  The more acid you use, the slower dye release is - but if you go with too much water, dye release and demise both happen faster.

I mix my stuff in a good plastic baggie, then put that on a paper towel.  The dye, when it's released, will actually migrate out through the baggie and stain the paper towel.  Every few hours I'll wander by and look for orange stains on the towel.  When I get a good bright one (I don't have to wonder if I'm seeing it) I can test, cone and freeze.

You have a fairly wide range in your temperatures - 75 might be too cool and 85 too warm at the times you're checking.  Try putting the baggie on the towel in your oven, with ONLY the light on.  Check often.  That helps to eliminate temperature fluctuations.  Leave a note on the oven knob so nobody roasts your henna like SOMEBODY once did! ;)

At a guess, I'd say you're not waiting long enough.  I would often let some crops of Jamila sit for 2 days and get awesome stain, whereas 1 day would give me so-so.  The raj might be trying to help but just not have enough oomph.

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Tue, 2010-12-14 11:27
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 The dump & go will be much easier :) ..hoping to try it tomorrow..do you use the raj & jamila together or only jamila. And about the bright orange stain on the paper towel-do you change the paper towel whenever you check it or do you keep the same paper towel throughout?

I thought i left my paste out for too long !!Hope it works ,am dying to get that dark stain!!!! By the way this is the link to my page. 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Luscious-cakes-Dazzling-henna/171803966168248

I'm the one who did the designs but a few aren't my ideas  ,it was from other artists which i tweaked a bit ..(i have mentioned that it's not mine ) Since you'll are the experts would like to know what you think :) I need to work on my speed & of course the main thing- THE PASTE!!! :D  Thanks :)

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Tue, 2010-12-14 11:49
ladytetsu
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

you've got some really nice work!!!

I used to use raj and jamila together, these days I'm a diehard fan of CCJ's Purity and Celebration mixed.  Which reminds me, I need a fresh kilo. . . anyway, yeah, I used to just dump them together and go.  You leave the paper towel under there - trust me, when you get the oh-my-god color you'll know it.  The faint wimpy stuff is a sign you're getting close.

Get your paste down and everything flows from there.  A lot of folks won't mind if you take a little longer if you're good and you get rockin' stain.  Speed is great,but first, the basics!!!

Good luck!

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Tue, 2010-12-14 11:55
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Thanks :)  Once i get this right  must try the purity & celebration :D 

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Tue, 2010-12-14 16:52
Nicole
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

I get really good colour with just Jamila.  Haven't tried combining it with Raj yet.  Maybe try to perfect your recipe with Jamila, and then try adding Raj to that.  I use the KISS recipe from Henna Caravan.

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Fri, 2010-12-17 09:01
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 I tried raj & jamila separately again &  i still can't get that stain!!! the previous day i had mixed raj & kept for 8hrs(coned it & refrigerated it) (since it didn't stain well) i tried putting it in a plastic baggie like you said with a tissue underneath...when it was somewhat  bright orange,tried the spot test,it was ok so i coned it...The Jamila i mixed fresh & kept it for 24 hrs & it left  fairly good orange stain so i coned it up because the patch test was also ok.

I tried a design on my palm & left it overnight but it was a dark orange after i removed the paste :( I also tried a little on the back of my hand & that was also a veeeeeery light stain ( it hasn't darkened much either) .

It's  not yet 24 hrs since i removed & i know it takes 48 hrs  for the stain to really develop but from the looks of it i don't think it'll get there!!! The colour that i got soon after removing the paste is the colour that most get after keeping it on for 2 hrs or less- a bright orange!!! Also this stain doesn't seem to develop much..Do i need to let my paste sit longer??? The KISS recipe  doesnt seem to work either :( I'm hoping to try AGAIN hopefully next week..Any suggestions??

BTW i didn't switch the light on in my oven because i noticed it was getting warm...does your oven do that??Thanks to everyone :)

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Fri, 2010-12-17 10:13
ladytetsu
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

WAIT!  wait wait wait!  Getting a nice bright orange right after you take the paste off is perfectly normal - that's how it's SUPPOSED to look!  Palms stain darkest, as you go up your arm the color naturally will not get as dark as your palm.  You really do need to wait, avoid water and keep the hand warm.  Here, I did a palm once, it was pumpkin orange right after the paste came off. . . www.flickr.com/photos/ladytetsu/2782665470/in/set-72157606457396761/ and it went nearly black after 2-3 days.  Just be patient!  Treat the stain well, avoid water or scrubbing, and just watch it bloom over a few days!

And yep, your oven may get a little warm with the light on, I use that warmth in the winter since my house is frigid.  You got good release, yay!  Now, patience as it blooms!

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Fri, 2010-12-17 11:03
(Reply to #11)
Jen
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 I also noticed that you were disappointed with your color when you took it off an hour and a half after applying it. That's not enough time!

All these things need to fall in line for perfect color...

1. dye release time.

2. Quality EOs with terping properties.

3. Paste on clean skin 4-8 hours.

4. Avoid water (and especially exfoliating and cleaning products!) as much as possible the first day after removing paste.

5. 2-3 days exposure to air to deepen the color.

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Fri, 2010-12-17 11:30
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Thanks again :D & i already saw that picture :D ...The past couple of days i've been looking at stain result photos & i must've gone through most of it lolz !!! I know i have to wait :D & i will try to post some pictures here if possible of the orange stain & hopefully darker stain.

Mine wasn't this orange,for how long did you keep the paste on ..was it 2 hrs? If it is so thats a great stain & i love that design!!! Anyway i'll update you in 3 days :D   & thanks to you & BlurberryBuzz for the like on my page :) :)

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Fri, 2010-12-17 11:50
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Thanks Jen..I'm using Tea tree oil..(Mariati ,100% pure essential oil) Since i've been trying VERY small batches i'm not sure if the oil was enough...when i mixed jamila i used about 2 tsps henna & maybe 1/4 tsp sugar & 2-3 drops of tea tree..Do you think thats enough oil? i went by the smell. Until i get the dye release times correct & of course master the art of paste making i have to make it in SMALL batches :D

I know that the longer you have the paste on it' s better but i know the people here might not do that, since some of these henna artists say we can leave it on for about an hour or so.I met a henna artist who makes her own paste( i know she doesn't use PPD etc) & when i tried her paste on my arm & left it on for about an hour & took it off it was orange & eventually turned a brown.The paste that i made, i left it on overnight & it was more like that orange! Shouldn't it be darker since it was on longer ..i also used the lemon/sugar syrup & wrapped in toilet paper :D  Thats why i'm wondering if my paste still needs fixing :) Lets see what happens over the next 2 days.Praying hard that it gets dark!!! :D lolz

 

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Sat, 2010-12-18 09:37
ladytetsu
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

dazzle, no problem!

Okay, I hate patience, it makes me nuts.  I used to just itch to pick my patterns off and then, yucky pale orange.  The way henna works, the good stuff, is if you leave it on a good long time, moist and warm, the orange lawsone dye molecules really soak into the skin.  BUT there's little oxygen in that dead skin under the paste, and oxygen is what makes stain turn brown, just like when you cut an apple or an avocado.  You need time out from under the paste to get brown.  So when you take the paste off, no matter how good your stain WILL be, it's almost always orange or maybe red on palms.  THEN, you have to wait for the oxygen to bind to the lawsone and turn brown - that's the wait time.  I did that palm for only two hours, mostly because I got annoyed and couldn't stand not having my hand free in the middle of the day.  I scraped it off, got my orange, and then, if you'll note in my comments, I was displeased with the next day's color - kinda wimpy.  BUT, the day after that it knocked my socks off.

Most henna won't give really amazing stain after only an hour or two.  Sometimes you luck out, especially if it's warm, or if you're doing palms or you WANT it to fade faster.  I always recommend to my clients to try to leave it on for at least 4-6 hours if they can stand it, and taped or wrapped overnight if a bride thinks the design is worth the money she's paid for it - take it off too soon and no guarantees.

 

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Mon, 2010-12-20 00:54
(Reply to #15)
Maggie
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

I refuse flat out to take off my henna early because I think my clients will do the same. If they don't listen to my instructions and they take the paste off too soon then that's their problem not mine. I do not give refunds because you cannot be certain that they've followed your advice even if they swear on their mother's soul they did. You need to do what you know henna needs, get a good stain and show it to clients and tell them if they want that colour then they need to do what you say.

It's also important to note that some people will NEVER get a good stain no matter how good the henna/oils/aftercare is their skin will just not take a stain. Whether it be the skin, hormones, medicates etc sometimes it just doesn't happen. I know of one woman who never gets a stain no matter what, in that case there is nothing you can do.

I do have to wonder about an artist you had you take the paste off after an hour and you got a good stain. She doesn't nessasarily have to be using PPD she could be using any number of nasty, toxic cones/recipes that will totally give you a great stain but could also make you extremely sick (and/or a walking candle should someone light a match near you). I don't trust any artist no matter if the stain is black or dark brown who doesn't insist on telling their clients to leave the henna on as long as possible 4-8hrs. Not just for the toxic aspect but also because if they are telling you just to let it flake off shortly after application they're just stealing your money too. That's just my two cents though!

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Mon, 2010-12-20 09:45
(Reply to #16)
Nicole
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 I had this problem at Eid, people not following instructions, then complaining it was light!  When they saw my results with the same henna, http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=43954&id=167706886591608 everyone was asking me, "What did you put on it?  What did you do?" I simply said, "Remember that card I gave you with instructions on it?  I followed those."  They thought I used some different henna or something.  One lady actually wanted me to re-do her daughter's henna the next day because it wasn't dark enough.  When I started asking questions, I found out they washed it off as soon as they got home the night before.  Umm...duh!  And she was the one I had taken extra time to explain aftercare because I wasn't very busy.  Thankfully we ran out of time, and she had to go, because I'm sure it would have been dramatic if I had said no.

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Mon, 2010-12-20 22:29
estavash
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

I was wondering, how are you storing the henna powder?  Do you keep it in the fridge or freezer?  If so, when did you order it?  Is it possible that the powder was roasted in an overheated mail truck in the summer?  Do you refrigerate the tea tree oil, and how old is it?  Have you ever tried any other brands of tea tree oil? 

If you're absolutely sure that your powder or terps were never overheated, you might try adding a few more drops of terps.  I've noticed that if I skimp, the color can be more orange and a bit lackluster.  Also, have you tried your henna on other people (for free, if you're not confident of your mix) to see if your skin just doesn't dye well?  I'm lucky to have skin that stains easily, but skin really does vary a lot... I even have one client whose fingers stay bright orange even after several days, when the rest of her hand has turned medium brown!  I know you said another artist's henna came out dark on you, but as someone else pointed out, you don't know for sure what she put in her mix and how safe it was.

Good luck,

Ellen

 

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Tue, 2010-12-28 13:17
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Sorry couldn't get back to you'll,was busy painting the house :D lol. Well the colour didn't darken on the 3rd day :( in fact it started to go off...with 2 kids & a whole lot of washing i tried as much as i possibly could to avoid water & used gloves whenever i could,but it was certainly better than the last time i tried!! Anyway i think i'll try keeping the paste a little longer & try the KISS recipe too.

Unfortunately my friends have gone home for the hols so  i can't try it on anyone else either. My hand stains kinda ok..certainly not light but so far i haven't gotten that awesome stain that most of you'll did so i guess i'll have to keep experimenting to see if thats as far as it would go for me...(i hope not :D ) 

I store the powder in the freezer..bought it online & i received it by mail,i think it took 2 weeks.didnt refrigerate the oil..should i?I'm not too sure how to post the photos here but i will try to post it soon.Thanks again :)

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Wed, 2011-04-20 21:40
2dazzle
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Hi everyone! Sorry it took me so long to get back with my stain results...Got caught up with my sons school work & my daughters b'day!The cake photos are on my facebook page :) here's the link.

www.facebook.com/pages/Luscious-cakes-Dazzling-henna/171803966168248

Anyways i tried the KISS recipe & this was my stain result :( ...It doesn't get dark beyond 24hrs too! The first 2 photos  are immediately after paste removal.The other 2 are at 24 hrs ...the darkest stain...

http://s1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff423/2dazzle/?action=view&current=DSCF3640.jpg

http://s1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff423/2dazzle/?action=view&current=DSCF3660.jpg

http://s1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff423/2dazzle/?action=view&current=DSCF3669.jpg

http://s1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff423/2dazzle/?action=view&current=DSCF3651.jpg

Is keeping the paste for 24 hrs for dye release too long bacause the climate is warm??? I froze the extra paste i had & tried it again but it's still the same :( I left the paste on for abt 5-7 hrs i think.I used the lemon/sugar syrup & sealed with the tape too.

 

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Wed, 2011-04-20 23:23
(Reply to #20)
Nicole
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Re: Help! Problem with dye release times!!

 Have you tried this on anyone else?  Perhaps you just don't stain well.  Maybe it's a lotion or something you use that's giving you problems?  It looks like when I'm just playing and wash it off after a few minutes.  Maybe try KISS with just Jamila.  How warm is your climate?

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